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	<title>Comments on: Remembering Lies: Interview with Psychiatric Abuse Victim Jeanette Bartha</title>
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	<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/</link>
	<description>conversation and contention, for your attention</description>
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		<title>By: GaianGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-843</link>
		<dc:creator>GaianGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 05:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-843</guid>
		<description>As for the use of the words &quot;ritual abuse&quot;...

Many years ago, academic Dr Steven Kent did a radio interview with Wayne Morris, part of the &quot;CKLN-FM Mind Control Series&quot;.  This interview and Dr Kent&#039;s 3 papers on the subject are very popular with the satanic ritual abuse - CIA mind control true believers crowd - almost every one of them with a webpage cites Dr Kent as part of their &quot;proofs&quot; for SRA being more than a sick fantasy. 

BUT - not one of these people uses the words &quot;ritual abuse&quot; the way that Dr Kent defined them. Dr Kent said;
&quot;Ritual abuse is any kind of systematic patterned disempowering violations. Ritual abuse can take place in a wide variety of contexts. They don&#039;t necessarily have to be religious in nature; however, ritual abuse is systematic, patterned, disempowering violations ...
In the allegations of ritual abuse that are say, outside a religious context, these kinds of abuses could involve a perpetrator who serially violates one person or one child repeatedly. In these cases the kind of violations would be patterned and the patterning can be important from the victim&#039;s standpoint because each time the abuse begins, the victim knows what&#039;s coming, having been through it several times before...&quot;

Steve Kent defined &quot;ritual abuse&quot; as RITUALIZED abuse, i.e., &quot;to make a ritual of&quot; abusing a child.  The patterned, repetitive nature of the abuse IS THE RITUAL, in the phrase &quot;ritual abuse&quot;.  That is the only legitimate use of the words ritual &amp; abuse as a phrase or term; &quot;ritual abuse&quot;. 

Every SRA/mind control believer uses these words, in combination, incorrectly. ALL of them use the word &quot;ritual&quot; to mean &quot;a religious/occult ceremony&quot;, and &quot;ritual abuse&quot; to mean sexual abuse of a child while a religious ceremony is being performed. Used for this context, however, the phrase becomes totally meaningless. 

Are children ever sexually abused while a religious ceremony is going on around them? Yes - if you believe the accounts of some victims of pedophile Priests, as I do, that&#039;s undeniable. Altar boys have been sexually groped &amp; fondled by such offenders, in such settings, for example.  But calling THAT kind of occurence &quot;ritual abuse&quot; is nonsensical. It is the equivalent of calling sexual abuse of children that takes place in a school, &quot;scholastic abuse&quot;, or in the locker-room shower of a college footbal team &quot;football abuse&quot;.  Abuse is abuse, there is no point to using the setting as an adjectival &#039;descriptor&#039;.  Sexual abuse that happens while a ceremony is going on, should be called what it is - &quot;abuse&quot;, period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the use of the words &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>Many years ago, academic Dr Steven Kent did a radio interview with Wayne Morris, part of the &#8220;CKLN-FM Mind Control Series&#8221;.  This interview and Dr Kent&#8217;s 3 papers on the subject are very popular with the satanic ritual abuse &#8211; CIA mind control true believers crowd &#8211; almost every one of them with a webpage cites Dr Kent as part of their &#8220;proofs&#8221; for SRA being more than a sick fantasy. </p>
<p>BUT &#8211; not one of these people uses the words &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221; the way that Dr Kent defined them. Dr Kent said;<br />
&#8220;Ritual abuse is any kind of systematic patterned disempowering violations. Ritual abuse can take place in a wide variety of contexts. They don&#8217;t necessarily have to be religious in nature; however, ritual abuse is systematic, patterned, disempowering violations &#8230;<br />
In the allegations of ritual abuse that are say, outside a religious context, these kinds of abuses could involve a perpetrator who serially violates one person or one child repeatedly. In these cases the kind of violations would be patterned and the patterning can be important from the victim&#8217;s standpoint because each time the abuse begins, the victim knows what&#8217;s coming, having been through it several times before&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Steve Kent defined &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221; as RITUALIZED abuse, i.e., &#8220;to make a ritual of&#8221; abusing a child.  The patterned, repetitive nature of the abuse IS THE RITUAL, in the phrase &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221;.  That is the only legitimate use of the words ritual &amp; abuse as a phrase or term; &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221;. </p>
<p>Every SRA/mind control believer uses these words, in combination, incorrectly. ALL of them use the word &#8220;ritual&#8221; to mean &#8220;a religious/occult ceremony&#8221;, and &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221; to mean sexual abuse of a child while a religious ceremony is being performed. Used for this context, however, the phrase becomes totally meaningless. </p>
<p>Are children ever sexually abused while a religious ceremony is going on around them? Yes &#8211; if you believe the accounts of some victims of pedophile Priests, as I do, that&#8217;s undeniable. Altar boys have been sexually groped &amp; fondled by such offenders, in such settings, for example.  But calling THAT kind of occurence &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221; is nonsensical. It is the equivalent of calling sexual abuse of children that takes place in a school, &#8220;scholastic abuse&#8221;, or in the locker-room shower of a college footbal team &#8220;football abuse&#8221;.  Abuse is abuse, there is no point to using the setting as an adjectival &#8216;descriptor&#8217;.  Sexual abuse that happens while a ceremony is going on, should be called what it is &#8211; &#8220;abuse&#8221;, period.</p>
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		<title>By: GaianGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-842</link>
		<dc:creator>GaianGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 04:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-842</guid>
		<description>Jeanette &amp; Doug - a very informative &amp; insightful discussion, thank you!

I&#039;d like to attempt to make a bridge between what each of you has just said, more explicit. (Please forgive me, if you think I fail in this).

Doug discusses the REALITY that; &quot;...many people both recognize the problem of Child Abuse AND recognize stories of Satanic/Illuminati/Freemason conspiracies as products of paranoid delusion&quot;, 
and decries the &quot;frustratingly ignorant and illogical arguments&quot;, employed by S.M.A.R.T. and other &quot; &#039;recovered memories&#039; are always valid and must never be questioned&quot; zealots,  to nullify this reality in their own and other people&#039;s minds.

Jeanette exposes and wisely warns against an equally ignorant false logic, underlying  the appeal that claiming to be a &quot;satanic ritual abuse&quot; generated MPD holds for some people;
&quot;A link that we Must break is the trauma + (satanic) ritual abuse + multiple personalities = highly creative means to cope. Developing multiple personalities is Not creative and is not representative of highly intelligent people – as many researchers and therapists would have us believe&quot;.

To be more explicit, some researchers and therapists promote the idea that &quot;being an SRA MPD&#039;&quot; means the person must be an extraordinarily creative and gifted individual - a very appealing idea indeed.  Some examples of this might help - here is a supposed &quot;Disability Information Resource Centre&quot;:

http://www.dircsa.org.au/factsheets/dissociative-identity-disorder/

claiming that; &quot;DID/MPD ‘develops’ in childhood. It is the result of ongoing severe abuse (physical, emotional and/or sexual) or trauma. It is a HIGHLY CREATIVE survival technique that allows a child to escape...&quot;
Note that this site specfically endorses the alleged SRA origin of MPD-DID;  &quot;Estimates of 40-60% of DID/MPD is caused by Satanic religious cults. This condition is often deliberately induced by the cult to produce compliance and amnesia&quot;.

Another site where persons claiming to be MPD-DID are heaped with praise for making such claims, and told that allegedly being MPD-DID means they are; &quot;extremely clever&quot;, &quot;brave&quot;, &quot;gifted&quot; and &quot;amazing&quot; persons with extra-ordinary powers and abilities:

http://www.squidoo.com/dissociative-identity-disorder-did

Skeptical commentor &quot;Justin Sanity&quot; challenges the site owner about this, and demonstrates that such interpretations of MPD-DID imply that SEVERE CHILD ABUSE CAN BE A POSITIVE GROWTH INDUCING EXPERIENCE;

 &quot;I&#039;m very uncomfortable with what is being expressed, here:
&quot;...the carriers of these personalities have an amazing power...that many of us [i.e.,the average person?] cannot fathom...&quot;
&quot;I love to hear people say things like, &quot;It is a power and not a disorder and it is amazing.&quot; I hope everyone who visits this page will agree with you&quot; - is that so?
Is it your intention, then, to communicate to your readers that persons diagnosed with DID are actually specially &#039;blessed&#039; and/or &#039;gifted&#039; by their DID? I hope you don&#039;t intend to say that persons with a potentially disabling condition, believed to be overwhelmingly a result of serious child abuse, are actually blessed to have this condition &amp; are gifted by it? You seem a caring person with good intentions, so I have to believe it is not your INTENT to suggest that serious child abuse could ever be &quot;a blessing in disguise&quot; or the root cause, (directly or indirectly), of any &#039;giftedness&#039; that anyone might possess&quot;.

&quot;There is one other thing that I would ask you to contemplate, about how you are choosing to approach this topic &amp; your desire to be supportive of &quot;DID&quot; persons. Some of your statements, particularly in response to comments, describe and promote a hierarchy of abuse experiences:
&quot;...millions of children are abused during childhood and don&#039;t develop DID...those who develop DID are usually subject to...SEVERE abuse...&quot;torture&quot;...unimaginable, horrific abuse...&quot;
and a hierarchy of abuse survivors: DID abuse survivors being &quot;extremely clever&quot;, &quot;brave&quot;, &quot;gifted&quot; and &quot;amazing&quot; persons - IN CONTRAST TO other abused persons, who may have &quot;drowned their lives in alcohol&quot;, &quot;abused themselves and others&quot;, or &quot;committed suicide&quot; and therefore must have been stupid, cowardly, talentless and unremarkable - ?&quot;

Therein lies the bridge between Doug&#039;s and Jeanette&#039;s insights - no matter how vociferously organizations like S.M.A.R.T. (and associated therapists &amp; researchers) might claim to be &quot;opposed to child abuse&quot;,  their insistence that MPD-DID would be a &quot;highly creative way to cope with the trauma of child abuse&quot; and therefore that THEY THEMSELVES must be  &quot;extremely clever&quot;, &quot;brave&quot;, &quot;gifted&quot; and &quot;amazing&quot; persons with extra-ordinary powers &amp; abilities, demonstrates that they are actually endorsing child abuse as a &quot;positive growth inducing experience&quot;. 

Justin Sanity says;  &quot;there are people using &quot;DID supportive&quot; websites to promote the FALSE idea that child abusers can and do deliberately induce DID and other &quot;special powers/abilities&quot; in their victims BY ABUSING THEM in a systematic manner. That is impossible (thank goodness!), and promoting the idea that there could be &quot;secret formulas&quot; for using child rape and torture to generate desirable qualities in children - under the guise of &quot;exposing abusers&quot; - is an evil thing to do in my opinion&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeanette &amp; Doug &#8211; a very informative &amp; insightful discussion, thank you!</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to attempt to make a bridge between what each of you has just said, more explicit. (Please forgive me, if you think I fail in this).</p>
<p>Doug discusses the REALITY that; &#8220;&#8230;many people both recognize the problem of Child Abuse AND recognize stories of Satanic/Illuminati/Freemason conspiracies as products of paranoid delusion&#8221;,<br />
and decries the &#8220;frustratingly ignorant and illogical arguments&#8221;, employed by S.M.A.R.T. and other &#8221; &#8216;recovered memories&#8217; are always valid and must never be questioned&#8221; zealots,  to nullify this reality in their own and other people&#8217;s minds.</p>
<p>Jeanette exposes and wisely warns against an equally ignorant false logic, underlying  the appeal that claiming to be a &#8220;satanic ritual abuse&#8221; generated MPD holds for some people;<br />
&#8220;A link that we Must break is the trauma + (satanic) ritual abuse + multiple personalities = highly creative means to cope. Developing multiple personalities is Not creative and is not representative of highly intelligent people – as many researchers and therapists would have us believe&#8221;.</p>
<p>To be more explicit, some researchers and therapists promote the idea that &#8220;being an SRA MPD&#8217;&#8221; means the person must be an extraordinarily creative and gifted individual &#8211; a very appealing idea indeed.  Some examples of this might help &#8211; here is a supposed &#8220;Disability Information Resource Centre&#8221;:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dircsa.org.au/factsheets/dissociative-identity-disorder/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dircsa.org.au/factsheets/dissociative-identity-disorder/</a></p>
<p>claiming that; &#8220;DID/MPD ‘develops’ in childhood. It is the result of ongoing severe abuse (physical, emotional and/or sexual) or trauma. It is a HIGHLY CREATIVE survival technique that allows a child to escape&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Note that this site specfically endorses the alleged SRA origin of MPD-DID;  &#8220;Estimates of 40-60% of DID/MPD is caused by Satanic religious cults. This condition is often deliberately induced by the cult to produce compliance and amnesia&#8221;.</p>
<p>Another site where persons claiming to be MPD-DID are heaped with praise for making such claims, and told that allegedly being MPD-DID means they are; &#8220;extremely clever&#8221;, &#8220;brave&#8221;, &#8220;gifted&#8221; and &#8220;amazing&#8221; persons with extra-ordinary powers and abilities:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.squidoo.com/dissociative-identity-disorder-did" rel="nofollow">http://www.squidoo.com/dissociative-identity-disorder-did</a></p>
<p>Skeptical commentor &#8220;Justin Sanity&#8221; challenges the site owner about this, and demonstrates that such interpretations of MPD-DID imply that SEVERE CHILD ABUSE CAN BE A POSITIVE GROWTH INDUCING EXPERIENCE;</p>
<p> &#8220;I&#8217;m very uncomfortable with what is being expressed, here:<br />
&#8220;&#8230;the carriers of these personalities have an amazing power&#8230;that many of us [i.e.,the average person?] cannot fathom&#8230;&#8221;<br />
&#8220;I love to hear people say things like, &#8220;It is a power and not a disorder and it is amazing.&#8221; I hope everyone who visits this page will agree with you&#8221; &#8211; is that so?<br />
Is it your intention, then, to communicate to your readers that persons diagnosed with DID are actually specially &#8216;blessed&#8217; and/or &#8216;gifted&#8217; by their DID? I hope you don&#8217;t intend to say that persons with a potentially disabling condition, believed to be overwhelmingly a result of serious child abuse, are actually blessed to have this condition &amp; are gifted by it? You seem a caring person with good intentions, so I have to believe it is not your INTENT to suggest that serious child abuse could ever be &#8220;a blessing in disguise&#8221; or the root cause, (directly or indirectly), of any &#8216;giftedness&#8217; that anyone might possess&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is one other thing that I would ask you to contemplate, about how you are choosing to approach this topic &amp; your desire to be supportive of &#8220;DID&#8221; persons. Some of your statements, particularly in response to comments, describe and promote a hierarchy of abuse experiences:<br />
&#8220;&#8230;millions of children are abused during childhood and don&#8217;t develop DID&#8230;those who develop DID are usually subject to&#8230;SEVERE abuse&#8230;&#8221;torture&#8221;&#8230;unimaginable, horrific abuse&#8230;&#8221;<br />
and a hierarchy of abuse survivors: DID abuse survivors being &#8220;extremely clever&#8221;, &#8220;brave&#8221;, &#8220;gifted&#8221; and &#8220;amazing&#8221; persons &#8211; IN CONTRAST TO other abused persons, who may have &#8220;drowned their lives in alcohol&#8221;, &#8220;abused themselves and others&#8221;, or &#8220;committed suicide&#8221; and therefore must have been stupid, cowardly, talentless and unremarkable &#8211; ?&#8221;</p>
<p>Therein lies the bridge between Doug&#8217;s and Jeanette&#8217;s insights &#8211; no matter how vociferously organizations like S.M.A.R.T. (and associated therapists &amp; researchers) might claim to be &#8220;opposed to child abuse&#8221;,  their insistence that MPD-DID would be a &#8220;highly creative way to cope with the trauma of child abuse&#8221; and therefore that THEY THEMSELVES must be  &#8220;extremely clever&#8221;, &#8220;brave&#8221;, &#8220;gifted&#8221; and &#8220;amazing&#8221; persons with extra-ordinary powers &amp; abilities, demonstrates that they are actually endorsing child abuse as a &#8220;positive growth inducing experience&#8221;. </p>
<p>Justin Sanity says;  &#8220;there are people using &#8220;DID supportive&#8221; websites to promote the FALSE idea that child abusers can and do deliberately induce DID and other &#8220;special powers/abilities&#8221; in their victims BY ABUSING THEM in a systematic manner. That is impossible (thank goodness!), and promoting the idea that there could be &#8220;secret formulas&#8221; for using child rape and torture to generate desirable qualities in children &#8211; under the guise of &#8220;exposing abusers&#8221; &#8211; is an evil thing to do in my opinion&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: jeanettebartha</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-841</link>
		<dc:creator>jeanettebartha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2011 18:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-841</guid>
		<description>Doug -

I separate &quot;ritual abuse&quot; (however it&#039;s defined) from &quot;satanic ritual abuse&quot;. I do this purposefully for two reasons:

1. ritual abuse exists in many cultures under many different circumstances. Religious rituals in one culture can be called abuse in another. In general, to declare that ritual abuse does not occur, in my opinion, is inaccurate.

&quot;Ritual abuse&quot; is an amorphous term. I have yet to find those who argue about its occurrence, when addressing how it creates multiple personalities, show any evidence that they are correct other than personal narratives - which unfortunately, people have been convinced that personal experience = accuracy.

2. I clearly state that I do not believe in the  satanic ritual abuse scenario as it pertains to the argument that it exists and is the reason children create multiple personalities. There are satanists in this world. The beliefs, rituals and practices of these people clearly are not the same as the satanic ritual abuse reported by those claiming to have repressed those activities endured in childhood. I thought I was raised by satanists and that is why I developed multiple personalities. I understand  how this thought process works and how it is that people come to this conclusion. I was wrong to accept someone else&#039;s rendition of my past and I almost died because of my inability to recognize that. And I most definitely did not have multiple personalities any more than I had 3 heads.

We need to be clear on what we are addressing. Words like ritual abuse, childhood sexual abuse, satanic ritual abuse, repression, and recovered memories are so overused that they are nothing more than buzz words that evoke emotion rather than stimulate rational discourse. 

Let&#039;s tease these terms apart and define them. Then we can unlink the associations between them. For instance that repressed memories = child abuse or child abuse = forgetting OR multiple personalities = high intelligence &amp; creativity.

The majority of people through the world who have endured the horrors of child abuse or sexual abuse do not have multiple personalities. Most people who have lived through trauma (however it is defined) do not develop multiple personalities. 

We need to take these facts and place them on the table when discussing the associations that trauma = childhood sexual abuse = multiple personalities = high intelligence. 

It is important that multiple personalities and dissociative identity disorder be viewed in a worldwide context. It is a fact that most people who survive repeated trauma of a sexual nature do Not develop multiple personalities and have not buried memories of satanic ritual abuse.

A link that we Must break is the trauma + (satanic) ritual abuse + multiple personalities = highly creative means to cope. Developing multiple personalities is Not creative and is not representative of highly intelligent people - as many researchers and therapists would have us believe.

This equation is void of the human capacity of resilience which most people worldwide show every day. Educated white women of affluent countries like the US and Britain, however, fall far below the capabilities of most people of third world nations who have no education and no medical or psychological resources. Taking this fact and misconstruing the reason this occurs is that those &quot;other&quot; people just don&#039;t have the capacity to realize that they have multiple personalities is ridiculous. Once these notions are clearly debunked, the allure of satanic ritual abuse and multiple personalities may not be as appealing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug -</p>
<p>I separate &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221; (however it&#8217;s defined) from &#8220;satanic ritual abuse&#8221;. I do this purposefully for two reasons:</p>
<p>1. ritual abuse exists in many cultures under many different circumstances. Religious rituals in one culture can be called abuse in another. In general, to declare that ritual abuse does not occur, in my opinion, is inaccurate.</p>
<p>&#8220;Ritual abuse&#8221; is an amorphous term. I have yet to find those who argue about its occurrence, when addressing how it creates multiple personalities, show any evidence that they are correct other than personal narratives &#8211; which unfortunately, people have been convinced that personal experience = accuracy.</p>
<p>2. I clearly state that I do not believe in the  satanic ritual abuse scenario as it pertains to the argument that it exists and is the reason children create multiple personalities. There are satanists in this world. The beliefs, rituals and practices of these people clearly are not the same as the satanic ritual abuse reported by those claiming to have repressed those activities endured in childhood. I thought I was raised by satanists and that is why I developed multiple personalities. I understand  how this thought process works and how it is that people come to this conclusion. I was wrong to accept someone else&#8217;s rendition of my past and I almost died because of my inability to recognize that. And I most definitely did not have multiple personalities any more than I had 3 heads.</p>
<p>We need to be clear on what we are addressing. Words like ritual abuse, childhood sexual abuse, satanic ritual abuse, repression, and recovered memories are so overused that they are nothing more than buzz words that evoke emotion rather than stimulate rational discourse. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s tease these terms apart and define them. Then we can unlink the associations between them. For instance that repressed memories = child abuse or child abuse = forgetting OR multiple personalities = high intelligence &amp; creativity.</p>
<p>The majority of people through the world who have endured the horrors of child abuse or sexual abuse do not have multiple personalities. Most people who have lived through trauma (however it is defined) do not develop multiple personalities. </p>
<p>We need to take these facts and place them on the table when discussing the associations that trauma = childhood sexual abuse = multiple personalities = high intelligence. </p>
<p>It is important that multiple personalities and dissociative identity disorder be viewed in a worldwide context. It is a fact that most people who survive repeated trauma of a sexual nature do Not develop multiple personalities and have not buried memories of satanic ritual abuse.</p>
<p>A link that we Must break is the trauma + (satanic) ritual abuse + multiple personalities = highly creative means to cope. Developing multiple personalities is Not creative and is not representative of highly intelligent people &#8211; as many researchers and therapists would have us believe.</p>
<p>This equation is void of the human capacity of resilience which most people worldwide show every day. Educated white women of affluent countries like the US and Britain, however, fall far below the capabilities of most people of third world nations who have no education and no medical or psychological resources. Taking this fact and misconstruing the reason this occurs is that those &#8220;other&#8221; people just don&#8217;t have the capacity to realize that they have multiple personalities is ridiculous. Once these notions are clearly debunked, the allure of satanic ritual abuse and multiple personalities may not be as appealing.</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-840</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2011 02:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-840</guid>
		<description>Jeanette --
I think you need to be cautious to define what you mean by &quot;ritual abuse&quot; any time you assert that it is real and that it does occur, because for some (if not most) people the &quot;classic satanic ritual abuse&quot; scenario is all that comes to mind when this terminology is used. I generally reject the use of the term in most any circumstance because of its abuse and the risk that a more moderate and sensible usage only serves to conceal the outrageous claims of Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy theorists. When I confronted one self-proclaimed SRA victim&#039;s counter-factual claims he ultimately evaded by replying that he was only trying to assert that &quot;ritual abuse is real&quot;. Of course, he was &quot;only&quot; asserting this because he feels that the &quot;truth&quot; of ritual abuse serves as evidence -- the only evidence he has -- that he was a victim of MK-ULTRA that saw him turned into a successful manchurian candidate (despite the documented failures in every procedure tested to get him to that alleged state). Naturally, &quot;the government&quot; kindly made him forget all this rather than simply kill him after he&#039;d served his function, and in spite of the fact that they displayed murderous brutality in all other things, according to the narrative.
SRA conspiracists love to set up false syllogisms. It goes something like this:
1) Ritual Abuse is real
2) Recovered memories are real
3) Therefore, if I say I&#039;ve recovered memories of myself as a Jedi Knight in a UFO fighting hordes of demons summoned through Dr. Mengele&#039;s quantum portal, it must be true.
Another tiresome one invoked again and again is:
1) Child abuse is real
2) Conspiracy theory-based organizations like S.M.A.R.T. claim that they are opposed to child abuse.
3) Therefore, if you express doubt in the factual basis of S.M.A.R.T. lecturer narratives, no matter how outrageous they are, you obviously have an &quot;agenda&quot; which supports child abuse.
The second one is the most annoying and it is used in variation by supporters of recovered memory accuracy:
1) Recovered memories can be highly accurate recollections of true events that have been repressed.
2) Repressed memories most often involve traumatic Child Sexual Abuse.
3) Therefore, to deny the validity of recovered memories is to deny the existence of Child Abuse.
It&#039;s a frustratingly ignorant and illogical argument, but I&#039;m sure you recognize it from having followed -- indeed having been an important part of -- this debate.
Of course, many people both recognize the problem of Child Abuse AND recognize stories of Satanic/Illuminati/Freemason conspiracies as products of paranoid delusion.
Rosie&#039;s own blog reports upon Anonymous&#039;s take-down of certain pedophile sites. She applauds Anonymous for this, and I think that this is a good case in which one can demonstrate that one needs not subscribe to ridiculous conspiracy theories in order to fight Child Abuse. I affiliate with and support Anonymous. I think I am fully in a position to say that Anonymous will always bring down such exploitative criminality whenever they can wherever it exists, but that nobody truly working with Anonymous on such projects supports S.M.A.R.T. or any other conspiracy theory based groups. (unfortunately, Rosie also writes about &quot;Darknet&quot; and &quot;TOR&quot; [and that Anonymous managed to &quot;get in&quot; to this sinister Darknet!] with no understanding of what these things are -- she seems to imagine that they are merely tools for child porn enthusiasts, but they aren&#039;t any more than the internet itself is).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeanette &#8211;<br />
I think you need to be cautious to define what you mean by &#8220;ritual abuse&#8221; any time you assert that it is real and that it does occur, because for some (if not most) people the &#8220;classic satanic ritual abuse&#8221; scenario is all that comes to mind when this terminology is used. I generally reject the use of the term in most any circumstance because of its abuse and the risk that a more moderate and sensible usage only serves to conceal the outrageous claims of Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy theorists. When I confronted one self-proclaimed SRA victim&#8217;s counter-factual claims he ultimately evaded by replying that he was only trying to assert that &#8220;ritual abuse is real&#8221;. Of course, he was &#8220;only&#8221; asserting this because he feels that the &#8220;truth&#8221; of ritual abuse serves as evidence &#8212; the only evidence he has &#8212; that he was a victim of MK-ULTRA that saw him turned into a successful manchurian candidate (despite the documented failures in every procedure tested to get him to that alleged state). Naturally, &#8220;the government&#8221; kindly made him forget all this rather than simply kill him after he&#8217;d served his function, and in spite of the fact that they displayed murderous brutality in all other things, according to the narrative.<br />
SRA conspiracists love to set up false syllogisms. It goes something like this:<br />
1) Ritual Abuse is real<br />
2) Recovered memories are real<br />
3) Therefore, if I say I&#8217;ve recovered memories of myself as a Jedi Knight in a UFO fighting hordes of demons summoned through Dr. Mengele&#8217;s quantum portal, it must be true.<br />
Another tiresome one invoked again and again is:<br />
1) Child abuse is real<br />
2) Conspiracy theory-based organizations like S.M.A.R.T. claim that they are opposed to child abuse.<br />
3) Therefore, if you express doubt in the factual basis of S.M.A.R.T. lecturer narratives, no matter how outrageous they are, you obviously have an &#8220;agenda&#8221; which supports child abuse.<br />
The second one is the most annoying and it is used in variation by supporters of recovered memory accuracy:<br />
1) Recovered memories can be highly accurate recollections of true events that have been repressed.<br />
2) Repressed memories most often involve traumatic Child Sexual Abuse.<br />
3) Therefore, to deny the validity of recovered memories is to deny the existence of Child Abuse.<br />
It&#8217;s a frustratingly ignorant and illogical argument, but I&#8217;m sure you recognize it from having followed &#8212; indeed having been an important part of &#8212; this debate.<br />
Of course, many people both recognize the problem of Child Abuse AND recognize stories of Satanic/Illuminati/Freemason conspiracies as products of paranoid delusion.<br />
Rosie&#8217;s own blog reports upon Anonymous&#8217;s take-down of certain pedophile sites. She applauds Anonymous for this, and I think that this is a good case in which one can demonstrate that one needs not subscribe to ridiculous conspiracy theories in order to fight Child Abuse. I affiliate with and support Anonymous. I think I am fully in a position to say that Anonymous will always bring down such exploitative criminality whenever they can wherever it exists, but that nobody truly working with Anonymous on such projects supports S.M.A.R.T. or any other conspiracy theory based groups. (unfortunately, Rosie also writes about &#8220;Darknet&#8221; and &#8220;TOR&#8221; [and that Anonymous managed to "get in" to this sinister Darknet!] with no understanding of what these things are &#8212; she seems to imagine that they are merely tools for child porn enthusiasts, but they aren&#8217;t any more than the internet itself is).</p>
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		<title>By: jeanettebartha</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-839</link>
		<dc:creator>jeanettebartha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-839</guid>
		<description>Rosie, I applaud you for hanging in there with this discussion.

I think that ritual abuse is real and does occur.

The classic &quot;satanic ritual abuse&quot; scenario? No. I do not believe it.

In my case, SRA was taught to me by the psychiatrist and reinforced by art therapy with other &quot;SRA&quot; victims. 

If we look at the psychological mechanisms in place it is simply mind control &amp; thought reform. When these 2 powerful coercive methods are in place they manipulate people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosie, I applaud you for hanging in there with this discussion.</p>
<p>I think that ritual abuse is real and does occur.</p>
<p>The classic &#8220;satanic ritual abuse&#8221; scenario? No. I do not believe it.</p>
<p>In my case, SRA was taught to me by the psychiatrist and reinforced by art therapy with other &#8220;SRA&#8221; victims. </p>
<p>If we look at the psychological mechanisms in place it is simply mind control &amp; thought reform. When these 2 powerful coercive methods are in place they manipulate people.</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-838</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2011 02:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-838</guid>
		<description>Rosie -
It is with disappointment that I see your blog links to an organization known as S.M.A.R.T. (Stop Mind control and Ritual abuse Today). S.M.A.R.T. is very much a fringe organization that really has nothing to do with dissociative studies. And you don&#039;t have to take my word for it if you sense some type of &quot;agenda&quot; at play. You can listen online to my interview with Kathy Steele of International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD) and hear her describe S.M.A.R.T. as exactly that: 
http://www.archive.org/details/WhatIsDissociativeIdentityDisorderAnInterviewWithAnIsstdPast
S.M.A.R.T. is organized by a conspiracy theorist named Neil Brick who describes himself as a former assassin for the CIA/Freemasons/Illuminati.
According to an article written for the Hartford Advocate in 2003:

&quot;Neil Brick, himself an alleged survivor of ritual abuse, says his self-discovery of past lives began about 10 years ago during a troubled part of his life. &#039;My whole life was very dysfunctional,&#039; Brick says. &#039;I was always tense, always holding my emotions in very tightly. I had a lot of life issues -- could not hold a job, had a failed marriage, drinking.&#039;

Only after straightening his life out and seeking psychological help did he become aware of his past life. Short in stature, Brick says that &#039;the government kept me small so that I could easily fit through ducts and crawlspaces when I was on missions.&#039;

He claims to have recurring memories of his part in assassination missions behind the Iron Curtain.&quot; (http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism86.html)

Neil Brick posts copiously on a Yahoo! Group called &quot;MindControl&quot;, which is dedicated to &quot;Serious theories, discussion of Mind Control, Ritual Abuse, False Alien Abduction, Real alien abduction. [...]&quot;

Whether or not Brick has a &quot;real alien abduction&quot; to tell us about, I&#039;m not certain, but he did have at least one UFO abductee, William Schnoebelen, speak at a S.M.A.R.T. conference. Schnoebelen also claims to be a recovered vampire, if that helps you get a better idea of how tightly held his grasp upon reality is.

In fact, no idea seems too lunatic to be presented as fact at a S.M.A.R.T. conference, and I attended one of theirs in 2009 where -- I kid you not -- a vendor was selling an electromagnetic beam-blocking baseball cap... the tin-foil hat for the modern, fashion-conscious paranoid. I listened to some disturbed woman talk about Dr. Mengele&#039;s experiments in opening demonic portals. 

When you first came here, Rosie, you made clear that you have continuous memory (rather than recovered memory) of your alleged abuse. Yet your website contains quite a bit of links regarding recovered memory and dissociation. Why is this?

For that matter, I find Neil Brick&#039;s comment to the Wisconsin State Journal perplexing:
&quot;Neil Brick, founder of SMART (Stop Mind Control and Ritual Abuse), a Massachusetts organization that works with survivors of extreme abuse, said it&#039;s a misconception that there are therapists out there initiating courses of therapy that lead to the surfacing of repressed memories. Rather, something in the patient&#039;s adult life may have triggered the memory, and the therapist helps him or her explore its relevancy, Brick said.&quot; (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_753791e0-2822-11e0-9cd7-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1gTDkx4o0)

Why does he say this when he directly endorses tales told by those who very openly underwent &quot;courses of therapy that lead to the surfacing of repressed memories&quot;? If he doesn&#039;t mean to imply that such treatments are potentially harmful, or that such memories are grossly unreliable, what is he trying to say? Does even he know?

It is unknown to me whether Brick himself underwent any type of recovered memory therapy or if it was simply the overwhelming banality of his worthlessness (as he describes above) that drove him to &quot;find&quot; a more exciting autobiographical narrative. In any case, I don&#039;t find him to be a reliable judge of information on any serious matter of discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosie -<br />
It is with disappointment that I see your blog links to an organization known as S.M.A.R.T. (Stop Mind control and Ritual abuse Today). S.M.A.R.T. is very much a fringe organization that really has nothing to do with dissociative studies. And you don&#8217;t have to take my word for it if you sense some type of &#8220;agenda&#8221; at play. You can listen online to my interview with Kathy Steele of International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD) and hear her describe S.M.A.R.T. as exactly that:<br />
<a href="http://www.archive.org/details/WhatIsDissociativeIdentityDisorderAnInterviewWithAnIsstdPast" rel="nofollow">http://www.archive.org/details/WhatIsDissociativeIdentityDisorderAnInterviewWithAnIsstdPast</a><br />
S.M.A.R.T. is organized by a conspiracy theorist named Neil Brick who describes himself as a former assassin for the CIA/Freemasons/Illuminati.<br />
According to an article written for the Hartford Advocate in 2003:</p>
<p>&#8220;Neil Brick, himself an alleged survivor of ritual abuse, says his self-discovery of past lives began about 10 years ago during a troubled part of his life. &#8216;My whole life was very dysfunctional,&#8217; Brick says. &#8216;I was always tense, always holding my emotions in very tightly. I had a lot of life issues &#8212; could not hold a job, had a failed marriage, drinking.&#8217;</p>
<p>Only after straightening his life out and seeking psychological help did he become aware of his past life. Short in stature, Brick says that &#8216;the government kept me small so that I could easily fit through ducts and crawlspaces when I was on missions.&#8217;</p>
<p>He claims to have recurring memories of his part in assassination missions behind the Iron Curtain.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism86.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism86.html</a>)</p>
<p>Neil Brick posts copiously on a Yahoo! Group called &#8220;MindControl&#8221;, which is dedicated to &#8220;Serious theories, discussion of Mind Control, Ritual Abuse, False Alien Abduction, Real alien abduction. [...]&#8221;</p>
<p>Whether or not Brick has a &#8220;real alien abduction&#8221; to tell us about, I&#8217;m not certain, but he did have at least one UFO abductee, William Schnoebelen, speak at a S.M.A.R.T. conference. Schnoebelen also claims to be a recovered vampire, if that helps you get a better idea of how tightly held his grasp upon reality is.</p>
<p>In fact, no idea seems too lunatic to be presented as fact at a S.M.A.R.T. conference, and I attended one of theirs in 2009 where &#8212; I kid you not &#8212; a vendor was selling an electromagnetic beam-blocking baseball cap&#8230; the tin-foil hat for the modern, fashion-conscious paranoid. I listened to some disturbed woman talk about Dr. Mengele&#8217;s experiments in opening demonic portals. </p>
<p>When you first came here, Rosie, you made clear that you have continuous memory (rather than recovered memory) of your alleged abuse. Yet your website contains quite a bit of links regarding recovered memory and dissociation. Why is this?</p>
<p>For that matter, I find Neil Brick&#8217;s comment to the Wisconsin State Journal perplexing:<br />
&#8220;Neil Brick, founder of SMART (Stop Mind Control and Ritual Abuse), a Massachusetts organization that works with survivors of extreme abuse, said it&#8217;s a misconception that there are therapists out there initiating courses of therapy that lead to the surfacing of repressed memories. Rather, something in the patient&#8217;s adult life may have triggered the memory, and the therapist helps him or her explore its relevancy, Brick said.&#8221; (<a href="http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_753791e0-2822-11e0-9cd7-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1gTDkx4o0" rel="nofollow">http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_753791e0-2822-11e0-9cd7-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1gTDkx4o0</a>)</p>
<p>Why does he say this when he directly endorses tales told by those who very openly underwent &#8220;courses of therapy that lead to the surfacing of repressed memories&#8221;? If he doesn&#8217;t mean to imply that such treatments are potentially harmful, or that such memories are grossly unreliable, what is he trying to say? Does even he know?</p>
<p>It is unknown to me whether Brick himself underwent any type of recovered memory therapy or if it was simply the overwhelming banality of his worthlessness (as he describes above) that drove him to &#8220;find&#8221; a more exciting autobiographical narrative. In any case, I don&#8217;t find him to be a reliable judge of information on any serious matter of discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: GaianGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-837</link>
		<dc:creator>GaianGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-837</guid>
		<description>A mild, but straight-forward and clear example for -  why claims of victimization, which involve allegations of criminal wrong-doing by a racial, ethnic, religious or social subculture MUST be scrutinized can be found here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/11/italian-girl-rape-claim-gypsy

&quot;A 16-year-old Italian girl whose claim that she was raped by Gypsies prompted a furious mob to launch an arson attack on a Turin Roma camp has admitted to police that she invented her story.
Hundreds of residents of the deprived Turin suburb of Vallette took to the streets on Saturday to protest after the girl, who has not been named, claimed she had been dragged behind a building and raped by two Gypsy men.
A splinter group of around 50 residents then marched towards a nearby camp where they reportedly called for all women and children to leave before throwing firecrackers and setting fire to caravans, shacks and cars.
Police officers evacuated the camp moments before the group arrived and no injuries were reported, but fire crews were unable to prevent the camp being destroyed.
The girl&#039;s brother, who initially backed her story, arrived with police as the flames grew to announce his sister had confessed to inventing the episode, but his appeal to call off the attack came too late&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A mild, but straight-forward and clear example for &#8211;  why claims of victimization, which involve allegations of criminal wrong-doing by a racial, ethnic, religious or social subculture MUST be scrutinized can be found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/11/italian-girl-rape-claim-gypsy" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/11/italian-girl-rape-claim-gypsy</a></p>
<p>&#8220;A 16-year-old Italian girl whose claim that she was raped by Gypsies prompted a furious mob to launch an arson attack on a Turin Roma camp has admitted to police that she invented her story.<br />
Hundreds of residents of the deprived Turin suburb of Vallette took to the streets on Saturday to protest after the girl, who has not been named, claimed she had been dragged behind a building and raped by two Gypsy men.<br />
A splinter group of around 50 residents then marched towards a nearby camp where they reportedly called for all women and children to leave before throwing firecrackers and setting fire to caravans, shacks and cars.<br />
Police officers evacuated the camp moments before the group arrived and no injuries were reported, but fire crews were unable to prevent the camp being destroyed.<br />
The girl&#8217;s brother, who initially backed her story, arrived with police as the flames grew to announce his sister had confessed to inventing the episode, but his appeal to call off the attack came too late&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: GaianGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-834</link>
		<dc:creator>GaianGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Dec 2011 07:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-834</guid>
		<description>Rosie - 
As I said before - I encourage you to tell your story,  just as much as it pleases you to do so.  I had no idea that Doug had offered to interview you this weekend, I hope that goes well for both of you.

There are realities you need to be aware of,  if you really intend to publish a book about your life which includes stories of &#039;demonic&#039; cult abuse.  I&#039;m trying to make you aware of some of these realities, and whether you choose to believe me or not, my intention is to be kind to you by doing this.

One of those realities is - this mantra of yours: &quot;No one has the right...&quot;, isn&#039;t going to stop me, or others,  from publicly confronting someone&#039;s nonsensical victimization claims.  

I am a person who was victimized as a youth, myself, and I&#039;ve been a real advocate for genuinely victimized persons, (in contrast to the self-serving apologists for frauds &amp;  con-artists that populate  S.M.A.R.T.),  for over 30 years. 

As such, I understand that I have a RESPONSIBILITY  to challenge claims of victimization - when such claims  involve allegations  of criminal wrong-doing  by a racial, ethnic, religious or social subculture.   
&quot;NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY DIDN’T SURVIVE SOMETHING THEY SAY THEY DO&quot;  - doesn&#039;t protect genuine victims,  but it does enable and shelter con-artists,  bigots,  and lunatic &#039;witch-hunters&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosie &#8211;<br />
As I said before &#8211; I encourage you to tell your story,  just as much as it pleases you to do so.  I had no idea that Doug had offered to interview you this weekend, I hope that goes well for both of you.</p>
<p>There are realities you need to be aware of,  if you really intend to publish a book about your life which includes stories of &#8216;demonic&#8217; cult abuse.  I&#8217;m trying to make you aware of some of these realities, and whether you choose to believe me or not, my intention is to be kind to you by doing this.</p>
<p>One of those realities is &#8211; this mantra of yours: &#8220;No one has the right&#8230;&#8221;, isn&#8217;t going to stop me, or others,  from publicly confronting someone&#8217;s nonsensical victimization claims.  </p>
<p>I am a person who was victimized as a youth, myself, and I&#8217;ve been a real advocate for genuinely victimized persons, (in contrast to the self-serving apologists for frauds &amp;  con-artists that populate  S.M.A.R.T.),  for over 30 years. </p>
<p>As such, I understand that I have a RESPONSIBILITY  to challenge claims of victimization &#8211; when such claims  involve allegations  of criminal wrong-doing  by a racial, ethnic, religious or social subculture.<br />
&#8220;NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY DIDN’T SURVIVE SOMETHING THEY SAY THEY DO&#8221;  &#8211; doesn&#8217;t protect genuine victims,  but it does enable and shelter con-artists,  bigots,  and lunatic &#8216;witch-hunters&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-833</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2011 23:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-833</guid>
		<description>Hello Rosie --
I don&#039;t exactly follow what is suspicious about Gaian Guy&#039;s comment, or how it would seem to be provoking you to to talk about me. I think you may be suggesting that he and I are the same person. Of course, all I can say to that is that I&#039;m not, nor would there really be much point in my posing as another person on this site. I am a bit surprised at how often the accusation seems to come up in this context, but I&#039;ll refrain from speculation about that now.
Of course, I am happy to speak with you this weekend, please email me the best means of contact (whether via Skype, phone, etc.) and a time.
So that we might avoid any potential nonproductive stalemates in our conversation, let me make clear where I am coming from now. You state that &quot;NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY DIDN&#039;T SURVIVE SOMETHING THEY SAY THEY DO!!&quot;
I disagree.
The idea that nobody has a right to challenge ANY survival narrative suggests that the &quot;truth&quot; of any such narrative is entirely a matter of subjective interpretation, and these beliefs can&#039;t properly be challenged by any open-minded and respectful listener. But SRA narrations often make absolute claims about alleged real-world events. It&#039;s not a question of whether or not any individual may have &quot;felt&quot; abused, but whether or not the claimed abuse is based on real-world events. 
Anecdote does us little good as evidence. I have spoken to people who seem to genuinely feel they were ritually abused by Satanists. I have also spoken with people who genuinely feel that they were abducted by aliens. I have collected interviews from individuals who have recovered traumatic memories of their deaths in past lives. None of these people have ever been able able to provide me with solid verifiable corroboration of what they say has occurred to them. Often, they will claim that they themselves have such corroboration, but it is never forthcoming, never available for my own scrutiny. I&#039;m still waiting on an abductee who collected a gelatinous substance from his captors, that he in turn handed over to some secret scientists, who confirmed it was not of this planet. I&#039;m still waiting for the coordinates of a mass-grave in Colorado where the Satanists are said to have buried their sacrifices.
Are these people lying to me when they tell me these things? I believe they believe in a certain &quot;core truth: that these events are occurring. They are willing to embellish conveniently unobtainable-for-the-moment corroboration so that I might believe them too.
Nobody can ever state with absolute certainty what happened at any event where one was not present. I could never state with certainty that what you say about events of your childhood are either true or false insofar as these events don&#039;t conflict with known and corroborated facts. 
Sometimes, of course, we absolutely can tell someone they did not survive something they said they did. For instance, if a friend of mine were to claim he had &quot;survived&quot; the Holocaust... well, technically that&#039;s true, but I would have every right to point out that nor did he experience the Holocaust for the fact that he was born many decades after it ended.
There are also many instances where a therapist not only has the &quot;right&quot;, but the duty to correct a client of his or her unlikely interpretations. Take, for instance, the client who declares that he is God, or that she is the reincarnation of Groucho Marx. It seems to be only with the question of abuse that it is suggested that any claim may be made with no questions asked. The idea seems to be that, on balance, it is far worse to NOT believe a true victim than it is to subscribe to an abuse fiction, thus we must uncritically swallow any narrative of abuse that comes our way. This is an oversimplification to the point of absurdity. 
The accusation of abuse is almost never some harmless interpretation without real-world ramifications outside of the accuser&#039;s therapy. The accusation of abuse necessarily demands an abuser, and we have to do better than &quot;no one has a right to tell someone that they didn&#039;t survive something they say they do&quot; because what&#039;s to prevent us from similarly claiming that we can&#039;t accuse somebody of doing something they say they didn&#039;t do? Clearly, accusations of abuse have been based on false evidence as well as false memories, as illustrated by the very interview we are commenting on. 
This is not a matter of looking at two different scenarios and choosing one that sounds &quot;true&quot; to us with 50/50 probability ascribed to each. We need to look outside the anecdotal and find corroborative or disconfirming evidence and assign a level of probability from there. Stories such as Jeanette Bartha&#039;s and Roma Hart&#039;s (also on Process.org) tend to have a high level of corroborative evidence, while Satanic Ritual Abuse has literally nothing solid, and a good deal of the SRA literature has been entirely debunked.  
Take, for instance, the case Lauren Stratford, author of Satan&#039;s Underground. &quot;Stratford&quot; claimed Ritual Abuse and did the talk show circuit for a time. Her book was influential in the SRA scene. Nobody who witnessed her emotional telling of traumatic events questioned her sincerity, yet the outrageousness of her claims were suspect. Ultimately, a Christian publication, Cornerstone, challenged Stratford&#039;s tale on factual details, finding the story to be false. Seeking her out later, journalists found that Stratford was then posing as a Holocaust survivor, though of course she had never been involved in the Holocaust on any level.
Was it wrong for Cornerstone to challenge Stratford? Is it wrong for any of us to say that she did not survive the Holocaust when in fact she was not in Europe during Hitler&#039;s era (perhaps ever)?
(Michelle Remembers is a supernatural tale, and I won&#039;t insult anybody by pretending that anybody here would take such a book seriously on any level despite its influence on Satanic Panic material.)
All that said, I reiterate that I am fully willing to speak with you still, but I hope you understand where I stand on the issue of anecdotal evidence beforehand...
Thanks -- doug</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Rosie &#8211;<br />
I don&#8217;t exactly follow what is suspicious about Gaian Guy&#8217;s comment, or how it would seem to be provoking you to to talk about me. I think you may be suggesting that he and I are the same person. Of course, all I can say to that is that I&#8217;m not, nor would there really be much point in my posing as another person on this site. I am a bit surprised at how often the accusation seems to come up in this context, but I&#8217;ll refrain from speculation about that now.<br />
Of course, I am happy to speak with you this weekend, please email me the best means of contact (whether via Skype, phone, etc.) and a time.<br />
So that we might avoid any potential nonproductive stalemates in our conversation, let me make clear where I am coming from now. You state that &#8220;NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY DIDN&#8217;T SURVIVE SOMETHING THEY SAY THEY DO!!&#8221;<br />
I disagree.<br />
The idea that nobody has a right to challenge ANY survival narrative suggests that the &#8220;truth&#8221; of any such narrative is entirely a matter of subjective interpretation, and these beliefs can&#8217;t properly be challenged by any open-minded and respectful listener. But SRA narrations often make absolute claims about alleged real-world events. It&#8217;s not a question of whether or not any individual may have &#8220;felt&#8221; abused, but whether or not the claimed abuse is based on real-world events.<br />
Anecdote does us little good as evidence. I have spoken to people who seem to genuinely feel they were ritually abused by Satanists. I have also spoken with people who genuinely feel that they were abducted by aliens. I have collected interviews from individuals who have recovered traumatic memories of their deaths in past lives. None of these people have ever been able able to provide me with solid verifiable corroboration of what they say has occurred to them. Often, they will claim that they themselves have such corroboration, but it is never forthcoming, never available for my own scrutiny. I&#8217;m still waiting on an abductee who collected a gelatinous substance from his captors, that he in turn handed over to some secret scientists, who confirmed it was not of this planet. I&#8217;m still waiting for the coordinates of a mass-grave in Colorado where the Satanists are said to have buried their sacrifices.<br />
Are these people lying to me when they tell me these things? I believe they believe in a certain &#8220;core truth: that these events are occurring. They are willing to embellish conveniently unobtainable-for-the-moment corroboration so that I might believe them too.<br />
Nobody can ever state with absolute certainty what happened at any event where one was not present. I could never state with certainty that what you say about events of your childhood are either true or false insofar as these events don&#8217;t conflict with known and corroborated facts.<br />
Sometimes, of course, we absolutely can tell someone they did not survive something they said they did. For instance, if a friend of mine were to claim he had &#8220;survived&#8221; the Holocaust&#8230; well, technically that&#8217;s true, but I would have every right to point out that nor did he experience the Holocaust for the fact that he was born many decades after it ended.<br />
There are also many instances where a therapist not only has the &#8220;right&#8221;, but the duty to correct a client of his or her unlikely interpretations. Take, for instance, the client who declares that he is God, or that she is the reincarnation of Groucho Marx. It seems to be only with the question of abuse that it is suggested that any claim may be made with no questions asked. The idea seems to be that, on balance, it is far worse to NOT believe a true victim than it is to subscribe to an abuse fiction, thus we must uncritically swallow any narrative of abuse that comes our way. This is an oversimplification to the point of absurdity.<br />
The accusation of abuse is almost never some harmless interpretation without real-world ramifications outside of the accuser&#8217;s therapy. The accusation of abuse necessarily demands an abuser, and we have to do better than &#8220;no one has a right to tell someone that they didn&#8217;t survive something they say they do&#8221; because what&#8217;s to prevent us from similarly claiming that we can&#8217;t accuse somebody of doing something they say they didn&#8217;t do? Clearly, accusations of abuse have been based on false evidence as well as false memories, as illustrated by the very interview we are commenting on.<br />
This is not a matter of looking at two different scenarios and choosing one that sounds &#8220;true&#8221; to us with 50/50 probability ascribed to each. We need to look outside the anecdotal and find corroborative or disconfirming evidence and assign a level of probability from there. Stories such as Jeanette Bartha&#8217;s and Roma Hart&#8217;s (also on Process.org) tend to have a high level of corroborative evidence, while Satanic Ritual Abuse has literally nothing solid, and a good deal of the SRA literature has been entirely debunked.<br />
Take, for instance, the case Lauren Stratford, author of Satan&#8217;s Underground. &#8220;Stratford&#8221; claimed Ritual Abuse and did the talk show circuit for a time. Her book was influential in the SRA scene. Nobody who witnessed her emotional telling of traumatic events questioned her sincerity, yet the outrageousness of her claims were suspect. Ultimately, a Christian publication, Cornerstone, challenged Stratford&#8217;s tale on factual details, finding the story to be false. Seeking her out later, journalists found that Stratford was then posing as a Holocaust survivor, though of course she had never been involved in the Holocaust on any level.<br />
Was it wrong for Cornerstone to challenge Stratford? Is it wrong for any of us to say that she did not survive the Holocaust when in fact she was not in Europe during Hitler&#8217;s era (perhaps ever)?<br />
(Michelle Remembers is a supernatural tale, and I won&#8217;t insult anybody by pretending that anybody here would take such a book seriously on any level despite its influence on Satanic Panic material.)<br />
All that said, I reiterate that I am fully willing to speak with you still, but I hope you understand where I stand on the issue of anecdotal evidence beforehand&#8230;<br />
Thanks &#8212; doug</p>
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		<title>By: rosie0161</title>
		<link>http://www.process.org/discept/2009/11/15/remembering-lies-interview-with-psychiatric-abuse-victim-jeannette-bartha/comment-page-1/#comment-832</link>
		<dc:creator>rosie0161</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2011 17:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.process.org/discept/?p=621#comment-832</guid>
		<description>I find this comment rather suspicious. I received an email from Doug this week asking me if I was available this weekend to interview. Then all of a sudden after several weeks Gaiain Guy responds to me. Not only does he respond he responds in a non-threatening, non-condensing way.  Your tone is completely chill compared to your previous response. I purposely made the decision not to post the &quot;potential&quot; interview with Doug on my blog because it isn&#039;t set in stone at this point. Can this be a ploy to get me to talk about him? I will answer your complete respond when I have more time. I will repeat that NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY DIDN&#039;T SURVIVE SOMETHING THEY SAY THEY DO!! For instance if I thought all skeptics were arrogant jerks does that make you one? I have learned in my life that you can&#039;t believe everything but you always have to have an open mind. A skeptic with a closed mind isn&#039;t truly a skeptic. No one is ever going to shut me up about what I survived. Later, Rosie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this comment rather suspicious. I received an email from Doug this week asking me if I was available this weekend to interview. Then all of a sudden after several weeks Gaiain Guy responds to me. Not only does he respond he responds in a non-threatening, non-condensing way.  Your tone is completely chill compared to your previous response. I purposely made the decision not to post the &#8220;potential&#8221; interview with Doug on my blog because it isn&#8217;t set in stone at this point. Can this be a ploy to get me to talk about him? I will answer your complete respond when I have more time. I will repeat that NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY DIDN&#8217;T SURVIVE SOMETHING THEY SAY THEY DO!! For instance if I thought all skeptics were arrogant jerks does that make you one? I have learned in my life that you can&#8217;t believe everything but you always have to have an open mind. A skeptic with a closed mind isn&#8217;t truly a skeptic. No one is ever going to shut me up about what I survived. Later, Rosie</p>
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